Brett Favre’s place in history

By Rick Morris

I join football fans everywhere in saying that I will miss seeing Brett Favre on the football field every Sunday (though I’m sure none of us are quite as broken up about it as John Madden is). He was an entertaining gunslinger, somebody who really loved the game, gave a lot to it and showed how much joy he got from it. I wish him the best in retirement and the game is poor for losing his on-field contributions.

My colleague Nate Noy posed a question about where Favre rates in the eyes of history, then he attempted to answer it (#4 all-time). Likewise, my other colleague Tony Mazur rated Favre within the confines of QBs he had personally witnessed. Similar to Nate's piece, I will offer a look at my own all-time Top 10 at the position. It is striking to me how similar our lists are. Just to recap, here’s Nate’s Top 10 (read his column to learn his justification for each pick and to see the key statistics for his QBs):

10. John Elway

9. Peyton Manning

8. Tom Brady

7. Steve Young

6. Sammy Baugh

5. Dan Marino

4. Brett Favre

3. Otto Graham

2. Johnny Unitas

1. Joe Montana

Before I begin my list, I’d like to note that Sammy Baugh just missed my Top 10 list at #11. Nate’s right that he did revolutionize the position and he was the greatest quarterback of his time, but I can’t award him a spot over any of these players, many of whom helped make this modern “golden age of quarterbacks” what it has been.

10. Bart Starr. If this were a fantasy draft, I’d slot him at the top of the second tier, with the nine QBs above him constituting a top tier. This is no slam on him, merely a statement of how I see him fitting into the landscape and indeed, being proclaimed one of the NFL’s All-Time Top 10 QBs is an honor in anyone’s book. He had a very nice synthesis of statistical production and championships earned (including the first two Super Bowls).

9. Brett Favre. He was a little more all-or-nothing than most of his counterparts on this list, which is the main reason I did not have him higher. Apart from a stretch in the mid-to-late ‘90s, he wasn’t universally regarded as one of the top two or three QBs in the game at the time, but was a top 10 performer almost all the way through. He’s in the top two or three all-time, however, at overcoming any kind of adversity and may have been the most fun to watch, for whatever that’s worth.

8. Peyton Manning. As with my rating of Tom Brady (and with Nathan’s ratings of both players), the slot is awarded based on the body of work to date. As one of the most elite statistical producers ever and a player who now has a title to his credit, the Top 5 list is a certainty if he can sustain his production another half-decade.

7. Steve Young. I fully expect many people to be blown away by the slotting of Young in the Top 10 (Nate won’t be surprised, however, since he had him in the exact same spot). Look up the numbers; from 1991-1994 he was as dominant as anyone to ever play the game and he capped off that run with a Super Bowl at the end of it. With an NFL career compressed into a relatively short run by a USFL stint and backup duty to Joe Montana on the front end and injury problems at the back end, there might not be anyone else in the history of the league who could have earned such a lofty spot based on such a short time frame. And in terms of influence, he still stands as the greatest example yet of the hybrid of athleticism molded to pocket-style quarterbacking – ironic, given the racial connotations so many seem to apply to the term “mobile quarterback.”

6. Tom Brady. One of the game’s most accomplished winners put up arguably the greatest statistical season ever in 2007. As with Manning, the Top 5 is within reach and since he’s a few years younger than Manning with two more Super Bowl wins and one more Super Bowl appearance, the next few years could catapult him to the point of becoming the consensus best quarterback of all time.

5. Dan Marino. He stands at the pinnacle of “statistical quarterbacks,” while falling much further down most people’s lists of “ultimate winner quarterbacks.” This is unfair, given the fact that he had less support than arguably anyone else on this list: few marquee WRs (outside of the early stretch with the “Marks Brothers”), a complete lack of a running game (no 1,000 yard rusher the first 13 years of his career – insane, given that a RB only needs to average 62.5 yards per game over the course of a season to reach that number) and a defense that was uneven at best over the course of his tenure. Given the limited impact that one player, even a great QB, can have on the bottom line on the gridiron, Marino is a very underrated winner for getting his team to make as many playoff runs at they did. And having lost a Super Bowl to the 1980s 49ers and an AFC Championship Game to the 1990s Bills is not a mark of shame.

4. John Elway. When the bad marriage with Dan Reeves ended, Elway got a chance to prove that he could win Super Bowls and also put up ginormous statistics. Factor in his mobility and penchant for late-game comebacks and the triumphant final chapter of his career boosts him to this point.

3. Johnny Unitas. As Nate pointed out, before Marino, Johnny U. was the statistical benchmark for the league and he also was a title-winner (and as Grampa Abe Simpson once said so memorably, “He had a flat-top you could set your watch by”). He had great durability, though he was fairly beat-up at the end. He was Top 5 in anyone’s book.

2. Otto Graham. This OG was simply, the ultimate winner. Every chance he got, he was earning All-Pro honors and playing for a title (and winning several). His vast accomplishments are sadly unknown by illiterates who think the game was invented with the birth of the Super Bowl in 1967, but these accomplishments are undeniable nonetheless.

1. Joe Montana. He was more renowned as a winner than as a stat-producer, but, as Nate notes, he did end up exceeding Unitas’ career passing mark. He was the engine of the 1980s San Francisco dynasty, which may have been the game’s greatest of them all, and he generally made it look easy. He set the all-time standard for clutch play that Tom Brady still has to surmount if he’s ever to claim this position.

My Top 10 Quarterbacks

By Tony Mazur

Below I have posted the Top 10 Quarterbacks of my lifetime. Since I just turned 20 years old last Sunday, I was not alive to see Bart Starr, Otto Graham, Roger Staubach, Ken Stabler, and Dan Fouts, and I only caught the tail end of Joe Montana's career when he was with the Kansas City Chiefs. Oh sure, they were all great quarterbacks, but I did not witness them live. Babe Ruth was an incredible hitter, but most of the population did not see him play.

10. Warren Moon.....Moon may have bounced around from team to team, but he made his name with the Houston Oilers. The Oilers may not have made it to the Super Bowl, but he helped them get to the playoffs year after year.

9. Jim Kelly.....Another QB that did not get a ring. However, he led those Buffalo Bills teams to multiple playoff appearances and pulled them team out of obscurity. Since he announced his retirement after the '96 season, the Bills haven't been the same.

8. Steve McNair....."Air McNair" may not be in everyone's Top 10 lists, but he sure impressed me. Between city and name changes, Steve McNair was a great overall quarterback. He may be somewhat functional now with Baltimore, but he's nowhere close to what he was with Eddie George, Kevin Dyson, and Frank Wycheck around him.

7. Troy Aikman.....Some have Troy higher up on the list, but I think he's fine where he is. Aikman may have had one of the best offensive lines of all time, two legendary running backs (Emmitt Smith and Herschel Walker), and a nearly perfect wide receiver (Michael Irvin), but he was a tough competitor.

6. Steve Young.....Can you think of a better backup? Steve Young backed up Joe Montana from 1987-93, and became the full-time starter in 1993. Young's aggressive style of play led the 49ers to Super Bowl XXIX, which they were victorious. Young helped pave the way for this generations slew of running QBs.

5. John Elway.....One of the greatest ever. Elway led his Denver Broncos to five Super Bowls, the latter two he won. A guy who took so many shots got right up on his feet and continued to perform well.

4. Dan Marino.....Yeah, yeah, we know. "But he didn't win a Super Bowl!" Trent Dilfer did. Brad Johnson did. Just because they won Super Bowls, does that mean they're better than Marino? I don't measure great quarterbacks by Super Bowl rings. Dan Marino was surrounded by marginal players that he helped look better.

3. Brett Favre.....Favre was another QB that turned average players into superstars. Antonio Freeman was a great Packer receiver, but would he have accomplished those feats with another team? The same with Dorsey Levens. Brett Favre wasn't just a great player, he is a great man. The league will surely miss his presence.

2. Tom Brady.....Forget about the 18-1 season. Tom Brady is in the top tier of quarterbacks of all time. He may have had Randy Moss in 2007, but Brady really had nobody for years. Tom Brady literally carried that team to their three Super Bowl victories, and won MVP after MVP awards.

1. Peyton Manning.....From what I hear from my father and other middle-aged adults, Peyton Manning shows signs of the great quarterbacks of the 1970s. His accuracy is astounding, and his demeanor is enviable. There is no coincidence that Peyton Manning pulled the Indianapolis Colts out of the toilet and into somewhat of a dynasty.

Brett Favre: How good was he?

By Nate Noy

Anyone that has listened to me on the FDH Lounge show or the previous shows I appeared on with Rick Morris on Sports Talk Cleveland realizes that I actually have opinions on subjects other than Jean Schmidt.

Rick, Jason and I were discussing the top-32 QB’s of all-time last month and with Favre’s announcement this week it is the appropriate time to have this debate. For today I will look at my top-10, perhaps in the coming days Rick, Jason and I will unveil our top-32.

There are a number of factors to consider and there is no “set formula”.

For me personally, the first question I ask is: “if there are two minutes to go in the game and my team is down six, who do I want to be the QB of my team?” The statistics of course come into play as does the fact if the QB was a “winner” or not. Other lists that have been compiled by the mainstream media should be taken into account, and I also considered the number of times the player was named All Pro(AP) (signifying he was one of the best at the QB position in a particular year.)

Below is my list:

10. John Elway HOF
QB Rating 79.9; AP 5; 51,475 yds; 300 TD’s
Elway ranks higher on some lists, he did win two Super Bowl’s and one SB MVP. He was great in the clutch but was only AP five times and his QB rating is low compared to the others on this list from his era.

9. Peyton Manning
QB Rating 94.7; AP 6; 41,626 yds; 306 TD’s
Right now with only one SB and one SB MVP Manning is still behind the players ahead of him in terms of career accomplishments. Give him five more years to pass Favre and Marino statistically and he moves into the top-5.

8. Tom Brady
QB Rating 92.9; AP 2; 26,370 yds; 197 TD’s
Brady could certainly someday make a case for number one on this list. He already has three SB rings and two SB MVP’s. His QB rating is only behind Young and Manning on this list (ahead of even Joe Montana.) However, he only has been named All Pro twice, since he has to beat out the likes of Peyton Manning for that award each year. With Moss back next year the Pats are the odds on favorites to win the SB, if this happens then Brady moves up a few more spots on this list. It should also be noted that 2007 was the single best season for a QB in NFL history, if his numbers even approach this next year, he continues his journey near the top.

7. Steve Young HOF
QB Rating 96.8; AP 7; 33,124 yds; 232 TD’s
His seven All Pro awards and 96.8 career QB rating keep him ahead of Brady and Manning for at least one more year. He won three SB’s and was MVP of the SB twice. He played for some horrible TB teams early in his career and had to sit in Montana’s shadow for a few seasons. The much higher QB rating and AP awards keep him slightly ahead of Elway on my list as well.

6. Sammy Baugh HOF; NFL 75th Anniversary All-Time Team
QB Rating 72.2; AP 9; 21,886 yds; 187 TD’s
Sammy revolutionized the game with his success in the T-formation in 1945. His QB rating is hard to apply to an era when the game was played differently. He was also one of the game’s best punters, and his nine AP awards illustrate how many years he was the dominant QB in the NFL. Along with Montana, Graham, and Unitas, he was recognized as one of the top-4 QB’s in the first 75 years of the NFL.

5. Dan Marino HOF
QB Rating 86.4; AP 8; 61,361 yds; 420 TD’s
Only made one SB and did not win it. Granted his supporting cast was weak at best for years. Very close to Favre statistically, but given Favre passed him in both career yards and TD’s this last year I have to give the nod to Favre.

4. Brett Favre
QB Rating 85.7; AP 7; 61.655 yds; 442 TD’s
Did win the one SB and made it twice. He will be the career leader in yardage and TD’s for 4-5 years until Manning likely catches him. His failure to win as many championships as the players in front of him keeps him out of the top-3.

3. Otto Graham HOF; NFL 75th Anniversary All-Time Team
QB Rating 86.6; AP 10; 23.584 yds; 174 TD’s
Played 10 years, made 10 championship games and won seven. Almost a dead heat with Unitas for number two on the list, but Unitas was a beast statistically. Often overlooked because he did not play in the SB era, but will always be on the short list of the top-5 all time, even if Brady and Manning continue on their current paces. Also it should be noted 10-for-10 being named All Pro, simply amazing.

2. Johnny Unitas HOF; NFL 75th Anniversary All-Time Team
QB Rating 78.2; AP 9; 40,239 yds; 290 TD’s
Three NFL championships, one SB win. Johnny U was the player Marino had to chase down statistically for all of those years. His longevity and records give him the slight nod over Graham. His QB rating should be taken with a grain of salt since he played in a different era where defenses were far more dominant.

1. Joe Montana HOF; NFL 75th Anniversary All-Time Team
QB Rating 92.3; AP 7; 40,551 yds; 273 TD’s
Simply set the standard for clutch play and efficiency. Four SB rings and three SB MVP awards. Passed Unitas in career yardage and his QB rating was hard-earned in the era that changed to game to what we see today. If I’m down six with 1:41 to go in the game and I can pick one guy to lead me to victory, there is NO DOUBT Joe is my guy.

Thoughts on these rankings? Feel free to comment below.

Championship Sunday thoughts

By Rick Morris

^ Norv Turner and Philip Rivers are the biggest goats of the day without any doubt whatsoever. Unlike LaDainian Tomlinson, Rivers did not have the good sense to pull himself from the game and Turner did not have the stones to step in and do the job that leaders are paid to execute. How was yesterday's scene any different than Grady Little failing to take the ball out of Pedro Martinez's hands in the 2003 ALCS when his pitcher clearly was gassed? Forget the 2004 baseball postseason, there's your cosmic payback for Boston-area fans yesterday as the shoe was on the other foot. Rivers was in pathetic physical condition, unable to push off at all on his passes. There was so much air underneath his throws that I was half-waiting for the Patriots to signal for a fair catch before making an interception. It is utterly shameful to hold the Pats, the best offense of at least the modern era, to 21 points on their home field and not win the game. Spare me the gaga about Rivers inspiring his team by going out there one leg and not wanting to put the game in the hands of a backup. Phil Simms was just being a homer for the quarterback position when he argued otherwise with no evidence to back up his moronic position. While imperfect, Billy Volek is far better than the average backup and proved his mettle at Indy last week -- and the team wouldn't have folded pathetically in the red zone every time with a quarterback that was physically able to play. I actually like Rivers as a quarterback, but make no mistake that his John Wayne Complex and the gutless non-response of his head coach were primarily responsible for the team's failure to win a game that it should have.

^ Why wasn't the CBS pregame crew on the scene yesterday? Since when is the studio utilized for a Championship Sunday game? CBS doesn't even have the Super Bowl this year -- this was the biggest day of their football season! Fox Sports sent their crew to Lambeau yesterday as they will for the Super Bowl in two weeks. Shame on CBS.

^ Contrary to the final score, the Giants actually dominated the later stages of the game yesterday. How else could Lawrence Tynes miss a game-winning field goal every ninety seconds? Mike McCarthy will have to answer for the fact that he so easily abandoned the ground game. Much like the previous week, you have to give credit to the Giants, but the Cowboys and Packers both made a ton of self-inflicted mistakes. Speaking of which, and my friends watching with me concurred, the game had much more the feel of a routine Week 9 game than a conference title clash. The mistakes, the up-and-down play of so many key performers on both sides -- it just seemed to drain some of the air of urgency out of the contest.

^ Yesterday's game reinforces the notion that even if Brett Favre had pulled off the improbable second Super Bowl win of his career, he still would be no better than a Top Ten quarterback all-time looking in enviously at the Top Five. Few other elite quarterbacks have been great for as long as he has, and few of them have the records that he does -- but few of them have the brutal tendencies that he does to this day of forcing the football and trying too hard to make things happen. You live by being a gunslinger, you die by it also and the flip side of the reality that makes him a folk hero and a legend also makes him somebody that you have to be just a bit conflicted about having at the helm of your team in the clutch.

^ In trying to anticipate the oppressive media crush of manufactured Super Bowl storylines, a few come to mind. Tom Brady will now be carrying on his famous battle with the Manning family against the other brother. Given the fact that New York tends to break down (in large part) with so many fans rooting for the Mets and Jets (the newer franchises in town) and so many fans rooting for the Yankees and Giants (the old-line teams in town), the Super Bowl is going to pit a great many Yankee and Red Sox fans against each other (can we root for Mutually Assured Destruction?). I'm hard-pressed to conjure up a scenario that gives the Giants a serious chance for victory, but I will address the Super Bowl matchup in more detail at a later date.

Championship Sunday preview

By Rick Morris

The inescapable conclusion after last Sunday is that the stunning upsets we witnessed are preventing us from witnessing what could have been a much better Championship Sunday (the thought of this saddens me greatly – it’s one of my favorite days of the year and I love to have my friends over for a daylong feast of gridiron). Indy and New England clearly have established the greatest intra-conference rivalry of the decade, joining the Dallas/San Francisco battles of the ‘90s, the San Francisco/Washington/New York Giants triad of the ‘80s and the Pittsburgh/Oakland struggle of the ‘70s in the pantheon of great back-and-forth struggles. Likewise, Dallas and Green Bay have established a tremendous history both separately and in epic games against each other and both clearly appeared to be on a clear path to the NFC title game. The games we are left with seem to be lacking compared to what might have been.

AFC Championship Game: The Patriots delivered a huge 38-14 beatdown back in September, at least momentarily taking the air out of the sails of a Charger franchise itching for a legitimate rivalry with the Team of the Decade after last year’s crushing playoff loss. In fairness, the Chargers were still adjusting to a new system after massive coaching changes coming into 2007 and were not ready to be pronounced as brutal failures under Norv Turner, as I and so many others did. Nevertheless, they still don’t stack up as well against the Pats as the Colts, who probably also would have lost but probably would have kept it closer. San Diego is banged up, with key injuries at QB, RB and TE – while all of their big-name players will probably participate in some role, the team will suffer mightily for them not being 100%. The Hoodie will be prepared for either Philip Rivers or Billy Volek; don’t be surprised if there is some shuffling between these quarterbacks in a vain attempt to gain a matchup edge of some sort. Ironically, Charger castoffs Rodney Harrison and Junior Seau have been playing very well this year and pose two significant obstacles for their old team. On the other side of the ball, Jacksonville has taken an unfair “20/20 hindsight” rap this week for not pressuring Tom Brady more; frankly, what they accomplished was to avoid a string of humiliating big plays with him decimating their blitz. The cold, hard reality is that it takes more than 11 defenders to shut down the New England offense this year, period. As far as I can tell, the league is granting San Diego no special dispensation Sunday and they will have to get by with the standard 11! The only hope for the Chargers, and it is a very remote one, is for playmaking corners Antonio Cromartie and Quentin Jammer to account for at least three turnovers and for the offense to convert almost every conversion. It won’t happen. New England wins, 38-17.

NFC Championship Game: Call it heresy given the copious amounts of respect coming their way, but I’m still not very impressed with the Giants. The alpha and omega of their defense is a pass rush; that’s it. Giant discard Ryan Grant is the real deal, a legitimate superstar who had his first career-defining game last week in the massacre of Seattle. He has provided the impressive Packer offense with the balance it lacked for the first half of the year and he figures to run all over the New York D. While the fearsome pursuit the Giants can bring will result in a few sacks and knockdowns of Brett Favre, he will nonetheless pick apart the secondary with precision most of the time. Meanwhile, Eli Manning’s recent hot streak should not end with a sudden thud in this game. The Giants should be able to use their rotation to establish the power running game in the snow and keep the Green Bay defense honest. I do look for one or two key interceptions, including a late one to seal the first Packer Super Bowl berth in a decade. Green Bay wins, 27-16.

Check out the most recent FDH Lounge show

By Rick Morris

The archive for the October 27 show is not up yet, but we urge you to catch it when it gets posted this week. As we mentioned when the rundown was posted, it was the final in-studio program with our friends and partners Jason and Samantha Jones prior to their relocation and subsequent establishment of the FDH branch office in Colorado Springs.

Towards the end of Hour Two and into Hour Three, we had a segment that was truly unique: comparing prominent rock and roll figures to presidential candidates, the greatest NFL quarterbacks of all time and the greatest NFL quarterbacks of today. If you never thought you'd hear these names in the same sentence, think again: Ozzy Osbourne and Otto Graham, Hillary Clinton and (post-Federline) Britney Spears, Amy Lee and Brett Favre! The warped minds of our friends the Jones newlyweds never cease to amaze and astound!

On a personal note, as the head of our little FDH family, I want to mention that we will greatly miss having Jason and Samm around personally even as we remain grateful for our continued association with them. Professionally, we won't miss a beat, they'll still be there thanks to the wonders of various forms of technology that will keep us tightly bound, but we'll be sad not to get to spend time with them personally. Sports viewing parties at my place just got duller (no offense to my other friends!). Best of luck to them in their new location.