Brett Favre’s place in history

By Rick Morris

I join football fans everywhere in saying that I will miss seeing Brett Favre on the football field every Sunday (though I’m sure none of us are quite as broken up about it as John Madden is). He was an entertaining gunslinger, somebody who really loved the game, gave a lot to it and showed how much joy he got from it. I wish him the best in retirement and the game is poor for losing his on-field contributions.

My colleague Nate Noy posed a question about where Favre rates in the eyes of history, then he attempted to answer it (#4 all-time). Likewise, my other colleague Tony Mazur rated Favre within the confines of QBs he had personally witnessed. Similar to Nate's piece, I will offer a look at my own all-time Top 10 at the position. It is striking to me how similar our lists are. Just to recap, here’s Nate’s Top 10 (read his column to learn his justification for each pick and to see the key statistics for his QBs):

10. John Elway

9. Peyton Manning

8. Tom Brady

7. Steve Young

6. Sammy Baugh

5. Dan Marino

4. Brett Favre

3. Otto Graham

2. Johnny Unitas

1. Joe Montana

Before I begin my list, I’d like to note that Sammy Baugh just missed my Top 10 list at #11. Nate’s right that he did revolutionize the position and he was the greatest quarterback of his time, but I can’t award him a spot over any of these players, many of whom helped make this modern “golden age of quarterbacks” what it has been.

10. Bart Starr. If this were a fantasy draft, I’d slot him at the top of the second tier, with the nine QBs above him constituting a top tier. This is no slam on him, merely a statement of how I see him fitting into the landscape and indeed, being proclaimed one of the NFL’s All-Time Top 10 QBs is an honor in anyone’s book. He had a very nice synthesis of statistical production and championships earned (including the first two Super Bowls).

9. Brett Favre. He was a little more all-or-nothing than most of his counterparts on this list, which is the main reason I did not have him higher. Apart from a stretch in the mid-to-late ‘90s, he wasn’t universally regarded as one of the top two or three QBs in the game at the time, but was a top 10 performer almost all the way through. He’s in the top two or three all-time, however, at overcoming any kind of adversity and may have been the most fun to watch, for whatever that’s worth.

8. Peyton Manning. As with my rating of Tom Brady (and with Nathan’s ratings of both players), the slot is awarded based on the body of work to date. As one of the most elite statistical producers ever and a player who now has a title to his credit, the Top 5 list is a certainty if he can sustain his production another half-decade.

7. Steve Young. I fully expect many people to be blown away by the slotting of Young in the Top 10 (Nate won’t be surprised, however, since he had him in the exact same spot). Look up the numbers; from 1991-1994 he was as dominant as anyone to ever play the game and he capped off that run with a Super Bowl at the end of it. With an NFL career compressed into a relatively short run by a USFL stint and backup duty to Joe Montana on the front end and injury problems at the back end, there might not be anyone else in the history of the league who could have earned such a lofty spot based on such a short time frame. And in terms of influence, he still stands as the greatest example yet of the hybrid of athleticism molded to pocket-style quarterbacking – ironic, given the racial connotations so many seem to apply to the term “mobile quarterback.”

6. Tom Brady. One of the game’s most accomplished winners put up arguably the greatest statistical season ever in 2007. As with Manning, the Top 5 is within reach and since he’s a few years younger than Manning with two more Super Bowl wins and one more Super Bowl appearance, the next few years could catapult him to the point of becoming the consensus best quarterback of all time.

5. Dan Marino. He stands at the pinnacle of “statistical quarterbacks,” while falling much further down most people’s lists of “ultimate winner quarterbacks.” This is unfair, given the fact that he had less support than arguably anyone else on this list: few marquee WRs (outside of the early stretch with the “Marks Brothers”), a complete lack of a running game (no 1,000 yard rusher the first 13 years of his career – insane, given that a RB only needs to average 62.5 yards per game over the course of a season to reach that number) and a defense that was uneven at best over the course of his tenure. Given the limited impact that one player, even a great QB, can have on the bottom line on the gridiron, Marino is a very underrated winner for getting his team to make as many playoff runs at they did. And having lost a Super Bowl to the 1980s 49ers and an AFC Championship Game to the 1990s Bills is not a mark of shame.

4. John Elway. When the bad marriage with Dan Reeves ended, Elway got a chance to prove that he could win Super Bowls and also put up ginormous statistics. Factor in his mobility and penchant for late-game comebacks and the triumphant final chapter of his career boosts him to this point.

3. Johnny Unitas. As Nate pointed out, before Marino, Johnny U. was the statistical benchmark for the league and he also was a title-winner (and as Grampa Abe Simpson once said so memorably, “He had a flat-top you could set your watch by”). He had great durability, though he was fairly beat-up at the end. He was Top 5 in anyone’s book.

2. Otto Graham. This OG was simply, the ultimate winner. Every chance he got, he was earning All-Pro honors and playing for a title (and winning several). His vast accomplishments are sadly unknown by illiterates who think the game was invented with the birth of the Super Bowl in 1967, but these accomplishments are undeniable nonetheless.

1. Joe Montana. He was more renowned as a winner than as a stat-producer, but, as Nate notes, he did end up exceeding Unitas’ career passing mark. He was the engine of the 1980s San Francisco dynasty, which may have been the game’s greatest of them all, and he generally made it look easy. He set the all-time standard for clutch play that Tom Brady still has to surmount if he’s ever to claim this position.

My Top 10 Quarterbacks

By Tony Mazur

Below I have posted the Top 10 Quarterbacks of my lifetime. Since I just turned 20 years old last Sunday, I was not alive to see Bart Starr, Otto Graham, Roger Staubach, Ken Stabler, and Dan Fouts, and I only caught the tail end of Joe Montana's career when he was with the Kansas City Chiefs. Oh sure, they were all great quarterbacks, but I did not witness them live. Babe Ruth was an incredible hitter, but most of the population did not see him play.

10. Warren Moon.....Moon may have bounced around from team to team, but he made his name with the Houston Oilers. The Oilers may not have made it to the Super Bowl, but he helped them get to the playoffs year after year.

9. Jim Kelly.....Another QB that did not get a ring. However, he led those Buffalo Bills teams to multiple playoff appearances and pulled them team out of obscurity. Since he announced his retirement after the '96 season, the Bills haven't been the same.

8. Steve McNair....."Air McNair" may not be in everyone's Top 10 lists, but he sure impressed me. Between city and name changes, Steve McNair was a great overall quarterback. He may be somewhat functional now with Baltimore, but he's nowhere close to what he was with Eddie George, Kevin Dyson, and Frank Wycheck around him.

7. Troy Aikman.....Some have Troy higher up on the list, but I think he's fine where he is. Aikman may have had one of the best offensive lines of all time, two legendary running backs (Emmitt Smith and Herschel Walker), and a nearly perfect wide receiver (Michael Irvin), but he was a tough competitor.

6. Steve Young.....Can you think of a better backup? Steve Young backed up Joe Montana from 1987-93, and became the full-time starter in 1993. Young's aggressive style of play led the 49ers to Super Bowl XXIX, which they were victorious. Young helped pave the way for this generations slew of running QBs.

5. John Elway.....One of the greatest ever. Elway led his Denver Broncos to five Super Bowls, the latter two he won. A guy who took so many shots got right up on his feet and continued to perform well.

4. Dan Marino.....Yeah, yeah, we know. "But he didn't win a Super Bowl!" Trent Dilfer did. Brad Johnson did. Just because they won Super Bowls, does that mean they're better than Marino? I don't measure great quarterbacks by Super Bowl rings. Dan Marino was surrounded by marginal players that he helped look better.

3. Brett Favre.....Favre was another QB that turned average players into superstars. Antonio Freeman was a great Packer receiver, but would he have accomplished those feats with another team? The same with Dorsey Levens. Brett Favre wasn't just a great player, he is a great man. The league will surely miss his presence.

2. Tom Brady.....Forget about the 18-1 season. Tom Brady is in the top tier of quarterbacks of all time. He may have had Randy Moss in 2007, but Brady really had nobody for years. Tom Brady literally carried that team to their three Super Bowl victories, and won MVP after MVP awards.

1. Peyton Manning.....From what I hear from my father and other middle-aged adults, Peyton Manning shows signs of the great quarterbacks of the 1970s. His accuracy is astounding, and his demeanor is enviable. There is no coincidence that Peyton Manning pulled the Indianapolis Colts out of the toilet and into somewhat of a dynasty.

Brett Favre: How good was he?

By Nate Noy

Anyone that has listened to me on the FDH Lounge show or the previous shows I appeared on with Rick Morris on Sports Talk Cleveland realizes that I actually have opinions on subjects other than Jean Schmidt.

Rick, Jason and I were discussing the top-32 QB’s of all-time last month and with Favre’s announcement this week it is the appropriate time to have this debate. For today I will look at my top-10, perhaps in the coming days Rick, Jason and I will unveil our top-32.

There are a number of factors to consider and there is no “set formula”.

For me personally, the first question I ask is: “if there are two minutes to go in the game and my team is down six, who do I want to be the QB of my team?” The statistics of course come into play as does the fact if the QB was a “winner” or not. Other lists that have been compiled by the mainstream media should be taken into account, and I also considered the number of times the player was named All Pro(AP) (signifying he was one of the best at the QB position in a particular year.)

Below is my list:

10. John Elway HOF
QB Rating 79.9; AP 5; 51,475 yds; 300 TD’s
Elway ranks higher on some lists, he did win two Super Bowl’s and one SB MVP. He was great in the clutch but was only AP five times and his QB rating is low compared to the others on this list from his era.

9. Peyton Manning
QB Rating 94.7; AP 6; 41,626 yds; 306 TD’s
Right now with only one SB and one SB MVP Manning is still behind the players ahead of him in terms of career accomplishments. Give him five more years to pass Favre and Marino statistically and he moves into the top-5.

8. Tom Brady
QB Rating 92.9; AP 2; 26,370 yds; 197 TD’s
Brady could certainly someday make a case for number one on this list. He already has three SB rings and two SB MVP’s. His QB rating is only behind Young and Manning on this list (ahead of even Joe Montana.) However, he only has been named All Pro twice, since he has to beat out the likes of Peyton Manning for that award each year. With Moss back next year the Pats are the odds on favorites to win the SB, if this happens then Brady moves up a few more spots on this list. It should also be noted that 2007 was the single best season for a QB in NFL history, if his numbers even approach this next year, he continues his journey near the top.

7. Steve Young HOF
QB Rating 96.8; AP 7; 33,124 yds; 232 TD’s
His seven All Pro awards and 96.8 career QB rating keep him ahead of Brady and Manning for at least one more year. He won three SB’s and was MVP of the SB twice. He played for some horrible TB teams early in his career and had to sit in Montana’s shadow for a few seasons. The much higher QB rating and AP awards keep him slightly ahead of Elway on my list as well.

6. Sammy Baugh HOF; NFL 75th Anniversary All-Time Team
QB Rating 72.2; AP 9; 21,886 yds; 187 TD’s
Sammy revolutionized the game with his success in the T-formation in 1945. His QB rating is hard to apply to an era when the game was played differently. He was also one of the game’s best punters, and his nine AP awards illustrate how many years he was the dominant QB in the NFL. Along with Montana, Graham, and Unitas, he was recognized as one of the top-4 QB’s in the first 75 years of the NFL.

5. Dan Marino HOF
QB Rating 86.4; AP 8; 61,361 yds; 420 TD’s
Only made one SB and did not win it. Granted his supporting cast was weak at best for years. Very close to Favre statistically, but given Favre passed him in both career yards and TD’s this last year I have to give the nod to Favre.

4. Brett Favre
QB Rating 85.7; AP 7; 61.655 yds; 442 TD’s
Did win the one SB and made it twice. He will be the career leader in yardage and TD’s for 4-5 years until Manning likely catches him. His failure to win as many championships as the players in front of him keeps him out of the top-3.

3. Otto Graham HOF; NFL 75th Anniversary All-Time Team
QB Rating 86.6; AP 10; 23.584 yds; 174 TD’s
Played 10 years, made 10 championship games and won seven. Almost a dead heat with Unitas for number two on the list, but Unitas was a beast statistically. Often overlooked because he did not play in the SB era, but will always be on the short list of the top-5 all time, even if Brady and Manning continue on their current paces. Also it should be noted 10-for-10 being named All Pro, simply amazing.

2. Johnny Unitas HOF; NFL 75th Anniversary All-Time Team
QB Rating 78.2; AP 9; 40,239 yds; 290 TD’s
Three NFL championships, one SB win. Johnny U was the player Marino had to chase down statistically for all of those years. His longevity and records give him the slight nod over Graham. His QB rating should be taken with a grain of salt since he played in a different era where defenses were far more dominant.

1. Joe Montana HOF; NFL 75th Anniversary All-Time Team
QB Rating 92.3; AP 7; 40,551 yds; 273 TD’s
Simply set the standard for clutch play and efficiency. Four SB rings and three SB MVP awards. Passed Unitas in career yardage and his QB rating was hard-earned in the era that changed to game to what we see today. If I’m down six with 1:41 to go in the game and I can pick one guy to lead me to victory, there is NO DOUBT Joe is my guy.

Thoughts on these rankings? Feel free to comment below.

The Voice of the (so-called) Fan

By Tony Mazur

My grandfather was a huge Browns fan. I'm not quite sure if he followed the Cleveland Rams from 1936-1945, but I do know he was a Browns fan from the beginning. When he wasn't patrolling the rough, pre-Civil Rights Movement Cleveland streets, he was listening to those championship teams on the radio. My father can recall my grandpa sulking all day after a Browns loss. In his later years, the Browns made it to three AFC Championship games, only to fall to John Elway and the Denver Broncos. He passed away on June 29th, 1990, leaving behind a devoted wife and four successful children. He cared about his family. But he certainly loved his Browns. To this day, I wonder how he would have reacted to the news on November 6th, 1995 that the Browns were relocating to Baltimore.

Eddie Mazur was a true fan. He supported the teams no matter how well (mid-'40s to mid-'60s) or how poorly (mid-'60s to early '80s) the Browns were performing. I know my grandfather wasn't the only Clevelander crazy about his football team. I'm sure each family has their share of stories, whether they be about heading down to Cleveland Municipal Stadium on those frigid November/December days by Lake Erie, or listening to the radio after attending Sunday mass. Fans nowadays cannot relate.

I really do have a problem with sports fans in this day in age. Unlike the "old days", if their team isn't performing well on the field or court, they'll pretend they don't exist. In some cases, folks will completely boycott the organization via petition or blog.

I can recall going to a relative's house back in 2001, a year to forget for the Cleveland Cavaliers.

"Hey, the Cavs game is on."

"The Cavs?! They're terrible. I don't want to waste my time." (instead, we watched Everybody Loves Raymond, a show that I still cannot get into)

Five years later, he's one of the biggest Cavs fans around.

Fair-weather fans do not just exist in Cleveland. They're everywhere. From 1995-1998, the newly-relocated St. Louis Rams weren't drawing well. Then came "The Greatest Show on Turf". Fans packed the Edward Jones Dome for the next few years following their Super Bowl XXXIV victory over the Tennessee Titans. After the downfall of Marshall Faulk and the departures of Kurt Warner and many other players, the Rams have been bottom dwellers for the past couple seasons. As a matter of fact, during the 2007 season, a couple of Rams games were blacked out locally, due to the lack of sell-out crowds.

2007 brought a lot of success to the Cleveland/Ohio sports teams. The Ohio State Buckeyes football team started off the year playing in the BCS National Championship Game, only to lose to the Florida Gators. Fast forward a couple of months to April as we see another Ohio State team fall to another Florida Gator team, this time in basketball. The Cleveland Cavaliers made their first NBA Finals appearance in team history, only to get swept by the San Antonio Spurs in four games. The Indians lost to the Boston Red Sox in seven games of the ALCS. And finally, the Browns had their best season since 1994.

For the first time in a Blue Moon, fans showed up to the playing facilities. While I was downtown working for another radio station, I saw so many people with LeBron James jerseys (most likely the kind you see hanging at JC Penny's) during the Cavs' run to the Finals. I saw more Grady Sizemore and Brady Quinn T-shirts than I can count. I saw through the phoniness. I was able to pick between the bandwagon fans and the true fans. The true fans had "Hot Rod" Williams jerseys and Cory Snyder garb.

What's going to happen to these "fans" if 2008 doesn't work out? What if the Indians' mediocre team blows its chance to reclaim another Central Division title? What if injuries hold down the Cavaliers? What if the Browns lose 11 games (which I think they will)? They won't show up. They don't care. They only want to root for a winner. And you call yourselves fans. Ha!

However, there are fans who do stick with their team. Some follow the team and cheer for the good times, but critique the bad times. Others will praise the good times and blatantly ignore the bad times. When a questionable move is made, these fans will justify the said move and attempt to turn it into a positive. These are the fans that will slam you if you say ANYTHING remotely negative towards their team (see DiaTribe Blog).

In the Cleveland area, we have some untouchable personnel. When I say untouchable, expect to get your behind reamed if you decide to critique ANY decision making. Here are Cleveland's Untouchables:

Grady Sizemore, Indians' center fielder: Grady is a terrific athlete. He can hit 30+ home runs, steal 50 bases, and make incredible catches in center field. But that's all anyone looks at. Sure he won a Rawlings Gold Glove Award in '07, but I watched him the entire season. On many occasions, Grady took bad routes to the ball. Balls that he should catch were overrun or misplayed. But that doesn't come up in the box score. What does is his low batting average and high amount of strikeouts. Don't get me wrong. I like Grady. However, his strikeout numbers and poor reads on the baseball have got to go. But we all love Grady Sizemore because he's so damn cute!

Mark Shapiro, Indians' GM: Former Indians GM John Hart took home six Central Division titles in seven years, and made two World Series trips. How did he accomplish that feat? He went out and spent money on veterans (Orel Hershiser, Dennis Martinez, Paul Sorrento), picked up top prospects (Kenny Lofton, Omar Vizquel, Carlos Baerga, Sandy Alomar, Jr.) and drafted pure hitters and sluggers (Jim Thome and Manny Ramirez) to help lead his team to victory. After the 2001, season, he handed his job over to his assistant, Mark Shapiro. Since '01, the Indians got rid of every player mentioned above in favor of younger (and cheaper) talent. Since '01, the Indians have been to the postseason ONE TIME. After the Red Sox celebrated their World Series victory, Mark Shapiro has refused to make moves. Instead, he has resigned the guys who blew the 3-1 ALCS lead. Why do you have to rip on Shapiro? They won 96 games! I'm sick of hearing that line.

Jim Tressel, Ohio State football coach: Jim won a BCS National Championship Game in 2003. He was blessed to have a talented quarterback (Troy Smith) lead him to many wins. But if you think about it, Jim Tressel has not won a National Championship with HIS RECRUITS. They lost two straight National Championship Games to SEC teams. Tressel loves to recruit within the state of Ohio, which is fine if other schools weren't importing recruits from other areas. If the game plan fails and the Buckeyes lose, it's not Tressel's fault. His assistant coaches should be fired for not doing their jobs.

In the three major professional sports, fans have the opportunity to vote for the starting lineups in their respected All-Star Games. Name recognition is huge when it comes to the voting process. Detroit Tigers' catcher Ivan Rodriguez started in the 2007 MLB All-Star Game. Not only should he have not started, but he shouldn't have been in the game. There were four to five better catchers than I-Rod last season, but since everyone knows "Pudge", we'll put him in the game. The same goes for Penny Hardaway. His best years were behind him, but fans STILL voted for him, based on his history with the Orlando Magic and his nickname.

No matter how you put it, fans annoy me. If you're going to support your team, go ahead. Don't make excuses as to why they may not be performing well, but also don't ignore or boycott them if their season is in the crapper.

Meanwhile, I cannot wait to see all of the die-hard Tribe fans come out to Progressive Field to cheer on their team....in April. 10,000 people and 32,000 ass-less green seats.